Lilly CEO on Ben Franklin & the Future of Drug Sales Reps
Who knew Sidney Taurel loved Ben Franklin?
Taurel, who’s about to retire as Eli Lilly’s CEO, called Franklin his role model, an “instigator” who “helped set things in motion and continued to offer ideas and moral support, even as others took the reins of leadership.” Taurel (pictured) may have just been playing to the crowd — he was speaking a Wharton School health conference in Philly, Franklin’s adopted home town. But if he was, he played well.
“I’m told Ben Franklin had a very pleasant retirement as well,” Taurel said, according to Dow Jones Newswires’ Peter Loftus. No word on whether Taurel plans to head to Paris to become a bon vivant and patch up our diplomatic relations with France.
But he did talk a little about the future of drug sales reps, beleaguered lately by layoffs and tighter rules governing their interactions with docs. There may come a day, Taurel said, when reps’ pay is based in part on the health of patients in their sales territories. Reps pitching diabetes drugs, for example, might be measured in part on improvements in patients’ blood sugar, as measured by HbA1c, he said.
The advent of new targeted drugs, designed to work in patients with particular molecular or genetic traits, could be another way in the door for sales reps, who might help docs understand which patients would be best treated by which targeted drugs, Taurel said.
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Based in part of the health of patients in their territories?
When pigs fly! What are you smoking, Sidney?
What a complete idiot! Maybe if you tie in using a drug off-label. Do you really hold any value to drug reps, with the exception of bringing cookies into the office?
Cookies and sponsorship of journal club dinners :)) I find most of them nice, respectful and pleasant. Those that aren’t don’t get much past the first visit……
Mr. Taurel’s ridiculous view on the utility of drug reps and how they could somehow be incetivized on the health of patients only reinforces the arrogant culture that he did his best to promote while I was an employee at Lilly. It is complete arrogance to think that ANY physician would allow reps to be involved in the care of a patient. Please bear in mind that these supposed “super-reps” are to come from the current crop of newly hired and to be hired pool of employees that do not have any sort of scientific background for the most part. Recent college grads with BAs in non-science fields. All hired because they will do what they are told, not question corporate decisions, and tell management what they want to hear. This is fantasy of the highest level. Of course, at some point an individual does start to believe his/her own garbage if they say it enough.
Mt. Taurel presided over a flop in share price, despite the launch of several first in class medications. Just go quietly into the night sir, and let Dr. Lechlieter see if he can inject some SCIENCE back into the company.
I i finc most reps very informed and very helpful.
Let’s keep it the way it was with drug reps. Blond hair with short skirts that boosts doc’s ego and other body parts.
We can sell the drugs but we have no control over how or how often the prescribers use them. It’s amazing that someone with this type of illogical reasoning can become the CEO of a major corporation.
Taurel is brilliant. In fact, most doctors cannot tell the difference between homozygous and homogeneous. Outside of “big pharma”, there are sales reps out there today who are involved in the interpretation of Dx results to help guide therapeutic selection, therapeutic drug metabolites, and many other components to net health outcomes. This would be a huge incentive to attract really well-qualified drug reps and restore the open dialogue that reps used to have before the crack down. Instead of the Merckettes and other reps valued just for their looks, we could return to the days of a technical, consultative dialogue where the reps actually have some value. Maybe then, doctors would do better than empiric prescribing of medications so more people would not die in the U.S. from NSAID-related GI Ulcers as side effects than die from AIDS. Who would have thought?
Taurel brilliant? I think not. See Andy’s comments. Would not disagree with PGx as to how it would be nice for things to be
the way he suggests, but Sidney’s comments go waaaay beyond that.
Even now well qualified drug reps have a dialogue which is very beneficial and informative.Taurel has a point too ..he is brilliant. V.R
Drug reps to get involved in medical decision making? They’ll get dragged into med-mal suits. Taurel has no clue. If Lilly wants to get med-mal insurance for each of its reps — about equal to their annual salary, and, in some cases, way beyond — feel free. Come to think of it, no insurer would cover a rep; they have no medical training, except for the 6 months of product training. So Lilly would be open to the thousands of med-mal suits that occur in the US. Imagine a 23 year old marketing major telling an endocrinologist to use a drug. His is an astonishingly ignorant comment.
Even now, that is what happens every day in the drug industry. “Tell your customers this, and if they don’t believe you, then they are idiots.” There is no alternative point of view for the drug industry except whatever the company mantra is about whatever product is being promoted. There is only one side; their side. Clinical experience doesn’t matter. Make no mistake, Mr. Taurel was a poor leader. he had no respect from his employees, and he operated in some sort of 1990’s fantasy land when it came to promotion. He has left Lilly ill prepared to tackle the challenges that the current healthcare enviroment will throw at the company. Why can’t one of these guys just be honest and say that they really have a hard time seeing the place for drug reps and management staff in the future? Is that so hard to just be honest? You are leaving for godsakes, what does it matter now? Save some poor sap 25 year old from pursuing a job here, only to wake up in 4 years and realilze that he is in a ghost town of a career with no job skills except the ability to drop off samples and cater a lunch. Lilly just added a former CEO of UPS to their board of directors. What do you think that he will have to say about the fact that they are paying out 170K per year in salary, bonus and benefits for an employee to do what one guy in a brown shirt can do in a week?
Taurel’s vision is science fiction. With current technology we can’t even match patients’ HbA1C levels to doctors’ performance, so trying to correlate it to transient pharmaceutical reps is analogous to calculating the Hoover Dam’s gravitational influence on the planet Mars. Pharmaceutical reps do have an influence on physicians as can be seen in a recent online survey of over 200 physicians at http://whatdoctorsthink.com/markettodoctors-results/SurveySummary.html
where 39% of physicians said that pahrmaceutical reps are one of their preferred choices for obtaining information about medical devices and pharmaceuticals. However, on a note of ambivalence, about 40% of doctors agreed with the recent policies enacted by some prestigious medical schools of banning reps from hospitals and medical centers.
Robert Cykiert, M.D.
President,
WhatDoctorsThink.com
DoctorNet.com
Now you know why Lilly is in poor heatlh itself.
This guy is delusional. Reps should not have interaction with patients or any responsibility for their outcomes. That notwithstanding, how could you possibly incetivize reps based on health outcomes in the general public? What input/control does a rep have over a patient’s ability/motivation to purchase a specific drug or, more importantly, be compliant in taking it while making diet/lifestyle changes to improve their outcomes? NONE. Doctors themselves can’t influence their patients to do more than take a pill (if that). Many patients don’t want to take care of themselves. They want little (if any) investment of willpower, sweat and/or money in their health. They just want a quick, cheap fix. Many doctors with whom I interact are getting frustrated with this mentality and firing patients. The challenge is also inherent in the bigger picture of Medicare/Medicaid costs that we pay via taxes (and HMO costs on the private side). Universal/nationalized health care? Are we allowed to police everyone’s diet, exercise and lifestyle choices? No. Then we (collectively or individually) shouldn’t have to be responsible for others’ resulting health woes, nor they for ours. Let’s bring back individual responsibility and put some sense back into the healthcare equation. The patient needs to feel vested in their own care. If they are not, then why should anyone else be?
I can just see a 27 year olf history major cheering on an endocrinologist to “do a better job treating diabetes, so that I can bring home a better paycheck.” Did this guy really have a CEO job?
When I consider all the monkeys in pharma management now, it’s easy to believe this guy was CEO.
Pharma only promotes people that try to perpetuate the Land of Oz or The Matrix.
Hey Andy, Sandy and the Colorado kid, guess what? I still make much more money than you and will retire by 50. And oh by the way, you probably could never get a job as a pharma rep b/c you either do not have the personality to put up with arrogant doctors or are just plain dumpy looking.
Taurel is why Lilly’s stock price has floundered during his tenure. He’s far from brilliant. In no way could reps possibly be held accountable for outcomes of patients within their territories for a multitude of reasons.
1. reps are not qualified to drive health decisions. How would you feel if you knew a drug rep was getting paid based on your health outcomes?
2. patients make their own choices regarding adherence. Since adherence drives outcomes, no rep can possibly motivate patients to take their medications. What are they going to do, start making housecalls?
3. the information about who benefits from a drug given genotypic and phenotypic information would proliferate so quickly over the internet, reps wouldn’t be need to “spread the news”. In addition, Lilly publishes its own clinical trial results on its registry. That information would have to be published long before reps had the opportunity to take it to doctors.
4. the rep profession is in the process of dying a slow death now that companies like Sermo provide an efficient channel for pharma to reach doctors
As a Wharton alum and former Lilly employee, I am dismayed both by Wharton’s choice of speaker and by Lilly’s fall from grace.
Well the rep, feeling better? I am sure with all the obese receptionist with no education, that you have to suck up to, firing back at us is therapeutic. The truth hurts apparently! FYI I was a drug rep for many years, and learned after those years what a waste of a catering job it really is. Now I do spine and guess what, I bet you don’t make more money than me, but who cares. The truth is doctors request my presence and want me there. Here are the facts, drug reps are not respected, nor are they desired in today’s health care arena. What is desired are the free samples, free lunches, free dinner programs tied to a high dollar sporting events. Now please get busy packing your trunk for Monday, and baking more cookies, you have lives to save!
Mr Taurel did nothing for Lilly, in fact under his watch he opened a pandora’s box with Zyprexa. During his tenure the stock has floundered,the pipeline remained empty, he acquireed Icos for Cialis but in the process eliminated 700 employee jobs. Way to go Sidney, I hope you sleep well at night. Karma is a bitch and when you meet your maker it will be a true wake up call for you.
Colorado kid,
So you were a drug rep before? Wow, you must be really special to be a device rep now. So I guess when you were a drug rep you weren’t that special. Hmmmm….. Some of us don’t derive our feelings of self worth entirely from work. Apparently that’s not the case with you. Bad family life? Daddy issues? Grab a free drug rep tissue box on the way into your next surgery and wipe those tears away sunshine.
Well it seems abundantly apparent you do derive your self worth by the reactions you get from either chocolate chip or peanut butter. I guess in the summer when you bring in ice cream bars really sets you apart. Think of all the lives you are saving. Read your first post, you immediately threw out how much money you make, and insulting peoples personal appearance, as if any of that matters, except to shallow immature people! The truth is that being a drug rep is a job you take until you figure out what you want to do when you grow up. You obviously have not grown up yet! The tears are from laughing at your logic or lack there of! Now who’s your Daddy?
I’m honestly offended about the worth that reps bring into an office. I can only hope that when each one of you visits a doctor that he is educated on new treatments that are available as opposed to the ones he learned in med school. Reps don’t just bring in ice cream bars or cookies, they bring in information that the doctor hasn’t had a chance to read on his own. Ever seen a doctor’s office before??? Nine out of 10 have medical journals piled on their desks or chairs with the studies that the reps bring into the offices. Unfortunately, with today’s healthcare system the doc has no time to read these journals so he sticks to his old ways of treatment until a rep comes in with a study to show him that he or she has new options. Worthless, please!!!
Whatever happened to HIPPA? There is no way in hell that a drug rep will be tied to a certain patient. Nice try though. That is why Lilly is not at the top of their game.
Sidney Taurel is a real bastard. See more on him here: http://www.managedq.com/search.php?q=Sidney+Taurel
Clue, not to be insulting, but I personally find that Doctors who refuse to see Drug reps, are far more knowledgeable and up to date than rep friendly doctors. Of course this is anecdotal, but the ones that don’t buy into big pharmafia seem to be a lot sharper. Now as far as recent journal articles and what you may “educate” your doctors on, you must realize that the studies you bring in, if approved by DDMAC, are very old indeed. Anything cutting edge, or current then you are not following the Pharma guidelines, and are putting yourself, your company and patients at risk. As far as “educating”, you really need to work in a little humility. You are not educating anyone, in fact a drug rep knows just enough to be lethal. To think that your 4 year BA and 6 weeks of intense training from your corporate training & marketing department, now qualifies you to “educate” doctors is laughable. Sorry to point out the harsh reality to you, but you are there to shake your tail feathers, and bring in food. If the doctor then likes what he/she sees, then they may start writing your product to help you out. These are the types of doctors, if someone in my family or myself are ill, I would stay very far away from.
Boy, If I were a doc, I wouldnt want any of you bashers in my office. I was a rep once and found that the personable reps did gain access but the ones that added value could be consulted on pt issues. Maybe not a specific patient but a patient type. As far as reps being rated on outcomes… probably not in a million years. Medicine is headed in a different direction and quickly. The reps that stay well read, keep advancing thier knowledge by cross training in other therapeutic areas are the ones that will be welcome as true personalized medicine becomes commonplace. True - bad reps will go away… reps that can and strive to be on a docs level will always add value and be welcome. Spend more time reading and studying and less time baking. Docs will see you as an asset!!!
I’ve heard some stupid comments before, but this one takes the cake. The average drug rep has a BS in elementary ed, business or communications. Involved in treatment? Please I’m gagging. I have been in the pharma industry over 25 years - all in field sales and training. The utter distain that sales and marketing people hold for MDs is unbelievable. Anyone in the industry has heard many times the following; “Go sell these doctors the data, they don’t know what they are doing or they would be using more of product X!” 90% of reps are a joke!
Lilly reps once were the most highly regarded by medical professionals for their knowledge and professionalism. Of course, nearly all of them were registered pharmacists, and thus had much more in-depth knowledge than that garnered in their several weeks of company training. But Lilly threw that away and joined the Mercks and Pfizers, hiring beautiful, affable, but not-too-bright marketers to regurgitate the same message over and over and over ad nauseum. Lilly could return to this model and MAYBE achieve some of Taurel’s vision, but I doubt that they will choose to do so.
BioCEO brings up points about rep self-education and cross-training that would be great in a different envoroment. The reality of the enviroment is like ColoKid describes. Reps cannot show or talk about anything that is not approved by the company without risking thier job and putting the company for liability risk. The studies that are available are not things that could ever be considered “new” or “cutting edge.” Material that is newly released by a journal about a certain product is strictly verboten to discuss or share with any MD, and the drug companies usually will have conference calls to discuss the information and warn the reps that this information is not to be shared with the customers. By the time the reps are allowed to show anything that would be new, it is old news. Any studies that are large enough to be conclusive are funded by the company that makes that particular drug, so it is not like you would ever be showing the customer any data that is from an unbiased source.
My point is that you can know as much knowledge on xyz disease state and a product’s use in that disease state, but if you are threatened with your job if you discuss it, or if you are not able to have more than 90 seconds with a customer (if at all), then what is the point?
Doc is right. This scenario is not what the companies want in rep conversation. They want their marketing points regurgitated on cue and that is all they want from the reps. Drug companies know that the reps are nothing more than waling 30 second commercials, so that is the extent of how they train the reps.
Taurel is an idiot. HMOs can’t incentivize doctors that actually prescribe and treat the pts. How are reps in any accountable for someone’s HbA1c?
Better reps and fewer reps with intelligence, experience and education. But this will only happen when big pharma gets less big, less bureaucratic, less whacked out managers and less HQ-based, know-it-alls interfering with the job of being a rep which has led to reps getting kicked out of more places then any one rep has ever been able to do.
I too was a rep for 8 years. To say that we as reps add value is a joke. Companies wanted us to go head to head with Dr’s discussing info was complete fantasy. I have M.S.degree in exercise physiology and cannot explain what happpens on the cellular level. Dr’s can. Showing data that was so limited in outcomes and patient populations is insulting to Dr’s and patients. I have always said the best way to pay a rep is to decrease salary each year and replace with bonus monies. Start the rep with $50,000k base and each year decrease by $5,000.00 and say make up the difference with bonus. That would weed out the bad reps and keep them motivated to learn and work. Sales are suppose to be the result of your knowledge, work and relationships. If territory is bad then get rid of reps. Save money and use less reps with bigger territories. Why do you need 5-8 reps/territory? Make it 2 reps and see who moves the needle.
Dirty little secret is a contract sales group has had more impact with Lilly’s drugs than any of the over paid and under acheivers known as Lilly reps!!
Taurel’s Franklin reference, apropos, likely had little to do with Philly and everything to do with his speaking at Penn…Franklin’s the founder. http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/3/3b/250px-College_Hall_and_Ben_Franklin_Statue.jpg
The reason why drug reps are not respected anymore is because they are being told to avoid pharma influence by their teachers in med school and in residency. The only problem with that is that these so called “educators” spend their life in a classroom and/or lab and never gain the experience of a practicing physician. Any good and well experienced physician will tell you that a credible drug rep can bring value to your practice. I have learned to rely on the good ones and ignore the bad. Fellow professionals, let us not be so arrogant to believe that we cannot learn from someone who does not carry a professional designation behind his or her name. Do not bring me brownies, bring me the information that I need and do not have time to look for in the NEJM.
Reps will never be paid based on the health of the patients in their area unless they are employed by a social services division that represents all drug reps and decides what medications or treatments to talk to doctors about and I don’t see that ever happening in this country. There is way too much money being made from the drugs which feeds new research and way too much waste and disorganization for social services to take up something like that.
- Richard
Hedge Fund
The bes thing to do with reps in the short term is to reduce thier number by at least 75%, pay them a flat salary of roughly 60K a year and treat them much the same as the apparel industry uses “merchandising reps.” You cannot pay a rep bonus and have it be fair or equitable, as you cannot track what the doctors write on an individual or territory level with more than 50% accuracy, and that figure continues to get worse as more and more AMA doctors opt out of sharing Rx data.
All of you physicians that are on this posting that are talking about how the reps should “bring you good information or data,” need to realize that the reps CAN’T BRING YOU THAT DATA. They are barred from this by company, FDA, or PhRMA guidelines. Plus, with all due respect, if you cannot find the same information that a drug rep can bring you within 5 seconds of searching the net, something is wrong.
I feel that we need to all understand that this “perceived value problem” is not one that is propogated of limited to just a few reps or just a few bad apples; it is systemic. Reps cannot bring value anymore. It is an outdated marketing delivery system, and it is a waste of money. If you bring value to the customer, you are part of the customer’s world. If you do not, then you are asked to leave. Which is happening in today’s market?
Look, I feel for the reps out there. It is a tough job. I know because I did it for a decade. I have many friends that are still reps, and it is hard to hear them talk about how they struggle with finding a purpose in putting on a suit in the morning. No amount of wishful thinking that it will “get better” once the “troublemaker” reps are gone will change reality. No amount of compartmentalized insanity on the part of Mr. Taurel will make the future any less bleak for all those people who work in this field. From what I have seen, they are just about all good people, but a busines cannot continue to pay people for something that has no ROI. (Please no one try and say that reps have ROI, because every rep out there knows the name of the game in self-reported productivity metrics.)
Colorado kid,
Did you get axed from being a rep? Were you a 10-2 Tues-Thurs rep? Plenty of those around. You must have some really brilliant doctors in Colorado if they can’t learn anything form a pharma rep. I’ve sold in two totally different disease states and can tell you honestly that the level of knowledge by doctors varies wildly. I’ve had doctors try six different antidepressants on a patient before it dawned on them that they may be bipolar. I’ve also had doctors prescribe amlodipine monotherapy to a diabetic with microalbuminuria. Reps clearly should not be telling doctors how to practice medicine, on the other hand an open-minded doctor can get good info that can make a difference in a patient’s life. By the way, my Daddy can kick your Daddy’s ass.
“The Rep” displays the typical arrogance that is driven into the empty minds of those that are viewed as good job candidates for the pharma industry. Of course, his two examples are 1.) anecdotal and 2.) based on situations where he got the information third hand at best. No rep has access to patient details that would enable him/her to determine what is the best therapy for a patient. Of course, there is a reason they do not have access to patient information. That reason being that they are not the patient’s doctor, and do not have the training to make a determination. The drug industry trains people just like TheRep to see and understand only far enough to make the determination that the doctor is a moron and the only obvious solution is to put the patient on whatever product that TheRep promotes.
Just another example of one of the reasons why pharma is being kicked to the curb by the customer base; reps who because of thier training have developed a degree of self-importance that only rivals that of professional athletes. The fact that a self-image such as that can, and is, many times reconciled with the mindless, worthless, day to say reality of the job should tell you how delusional and full of crap that pharma industry marketing has become.
Sid Taurel is out of his mind. Tracking patient health/outcomes to specific prescribed drugs already has a name. It is called a clinical trial. If the technology existed to monitor these events outside of the trial environment, do you think that a Pharma Rep would get paid….? Not a chance. If this scenario existed, the pharma rep would get replaced by that technology.
Pharma rep is a difficult job, and it is made harder every year. The reality is that it is a job that will either be redefined or completely replaced in the next 20 years.
Let’s review why:
1.A sales rep is supposed to sell. Sales go up as you bring value to the customer. If you are bringing the most up to date data and information to the customer then you are probably violating your own company’s policy. With rare exception it takes 6 months to get a journal article approved by legal dept. So, if you are providing last week’s article, no matter how valid, you are violating your ethics with your employer.
2.Online Support:As each pharma compnay puts its ‘Dear Dr: medical letters” on the internet, it will push YOUR customer to avoid contact with you and gain the necessary answers online. Not good for job security.
3.Sales implies that you are influencing your local market. Neither you, your district manager, or regional manager has the ability to negotiate with third party payers or pharmacies on drug price or Formulary Tier levels. This is the single biggest determination of your market potential and you don’t even know the people that make the decisions. Ouch
4.If you want to know how viable your job is, then look to see what your boss does. Your District Manager has two major roles..first make sure administrative requirements are completed and second is ensuring “Message Management” of the sales message by YOU and your peers. Of course the approved message is from corporate with a “one size fits all” approach.
5. The Franchise Myth: I am confident that most current Pharma Reps have been told that they have a franchise. Wrong. If you actually act like a franchise and try to get $$ or speakers for your territory at the CRITICAL times you need it…well forget about it…you wil get this National Speaker, on this day, of this month, perhaps during this year.
6.Pharma Reps have their good and their bad like every other profession. But please realize that outside of the BIOTECH side of pharma you do little more than provide patient advocacy and samples.
I spent many years in Pharma and was very successful. After spending time in the medical capital sales area, I am convinced that the goal oriented, passionate, consultative, problem solving reps in Pharma would be much more successful in just about any other area of medical sales.
The rep, you obviously got your panties in a bunch, because my post made you face the fact that what you do is of no value to anyone. I was not “axed”, but after a few years realized how pharma is a unrewarding, do nothing, glorified delivery job. As reality check put it, I knew that my skills would be far better utilized in a different venue. Like I said, being a drug rep is a 5 year gig at best, and it is what you do, until you grow up. If you are still slinging samples beyond that, then you are either not qualified to anything else, lazy, or both. As stated earlier if you think your 4 year BA and intense 6 weeks of training (driven by your marketing department) now makes you an expert on both of the disease states you mentioned, then there is no hope for you until you mature. Remember you don’t know as much as you think, and what you do know is skewed by your marketing department, which makes you a danger to those that believe you to be credible (fewer than you think), and worse yet the patients that receive the poisons you pimp out. Now get that trunk all organized, and cookies baked, the entire medical community is counting on your medical wisdom and the vast experience you possess in two whole therapeutic areas!
Drug Reps today are involved in patient care, albeit at a macro level. Reps do not get involved with the care of an individual patinets, but reps do work to help physicians and staff in the treatment of a particular disease state and patients affected by these same diseases. I think that is what Taurel is refering to for the future.
Colorado kid and Andy,
You’re so right. We drug reps don’t know what the heck we’re talking about. The MDs in Colorado must retain all the pertinent information on the 200 plus disease states that they see on a regular basis. And I guess all those FDA guidelines and guidelines issued by the American Heart Association, American Diabetes Association, etc. are all “anecdotal” and worthless. I guess the estimated 100,000 patients that are killed every year due to medical errors were killed by the tooth fairy and not by health care professionals making big mistakes. I also guess that your doctors don’t make mistakes. Oh by the way, cookies are so ‘07. Krispy Kreme seems to be the crack of office staff these days.
To The Rep:
Your points regarding the ADA, AHA and guidelines are correct. Unfortunately, they are off point.
Pharma Reps do provide value in this area. However, you do not work for the ADA or AHA and the sales number you are asked to achieve is not reflected in the knowledge your customer, the physician, has of these guidelines. To the contrary, the knowledge your customer is required to know that impacts your sales number is which insurance covers your drug and how much that drug costs. If it is price prohibitive, then the physician needs to know how to get a patient started with your companies assistance program. This coverage information is more critical to a patient getting started on your drug than any publication regarding the efficacy of this drug. A co pay of more than $50 can kill your sales for that year.
So please, if your primary employment is around sales, be intellectually honest enough to realize that all the other information you provide is window dressing to the real issue of drug coverage and pricing.
As a final note, I suggest you google Eli Lilly, cancer, Kansas City. You will find an eye opening account of med mal that was discovered by a Lilly rep and did save lives. Mr. Taurel’s backbone was not strong enough to back the actions of the rep in the field and he settled the case out of court. So much for his vision of reps being tied into the health outcomes of patients.
Reality Check,
Just read the Lilly story. Very sad that Uncle Eli didn’t do the right thing. True to your name you make a good point. Managed care and ease of prescribing are increasingly more important then efficacy to many doctors. Unfortunately that’s the world we live in now. Just wait until the democrats take over in November. If we think we have problems now we haven’t seen anything yet.
TR - 200 disease states? Well doctors everywhere are so fortunate that you got 2 of them down! The United States Health-care System thanks you! Now you only have 198 to go! Krispy Kream? Better jump on several dozen for tomorrow!
RC - I tell you, your youth and enthusiasm are abundantly apparent! This is a great trait, however misplaced. Your naive nature is cute, don’t get stuck in pharma! I hope you don’t get too jaded as you age in this industry, but unfortunately the odds are against you, the longer you stay. Remember 5 years max, if you stay longer, other opportunities in health-care sales will not hire you. Drug reps have a very bad reputation. Pharmafia will use you until they have no use for you. Ask some people who have been carrying a bag for 20 years, if they trust you, they will tell you.
Best of luck to you both!
Read my post in its entirety. I believe once you do you will see that I am no longer in pharma but in med capital. I left for many of the reasons you outlined in addition to those that I outlined myself.
You are correct that in every other area of med sales that require a “Purchase Order” to prove a sale will think twice about any pharma rep with more than 5 years in pharma. Unless of course, that rep shows a track record of rapid and repeat promotions and includes specialty/biotech experience. Primary care sales is the starting point for the inexperienced and elephant graveyard for the experienced.
The fact that you find my writing youthful and enthusiastic is quite a compliment since I am rarely considered either.
Naive nature is more than a bit off the mark. I imagine you will be more than happy to retract that after fully reading all of my previous posts.
Above post from RC for CK
“Reps pitching diabetes drugs, for example, might be measured in part on improvements in patients’ blood sugar, as measured by HbA1c, he said.”
I applaud his idea but firmly believe that this will not happen simply by popping a pill. Comprehensive and an integrated Diabetes MANAGEMENT system is what is needed….no simply testing your blood sugar levels nor simply taking a diabetes drug.
Nutrition, exercise, daily monitoring of vitals, drug compliance and motivational methods are what is needed for diabetics.
I am of the corporate philosophy that “pharma should look at global best or breed practices and not just American best of breed—–afterall diabetes is a GLOBAL chronic disease.
To that end, why hasen’t his company used what I am using in Tokyo for my diabetes management? I’m using lifewatcher, a cell phone self- disease management in which my Japanese doctor and wife can also remotely monitor me from their PC.
From :global best of breed in Tokyo
TR,
Best of luck to you in the future. I humbly suggest that if you read your last post, it may offer the most clarity on the future of your position and the long term viability of your career.
Taurel’s comments are arrogant and out of touch. As stated eloquently by others on this board, most drug reps have limited impact on the physicians they detail. The free samples are accepted primarily because almost every physician has patients who can benefit by getting their Rx free even if it simply defers costs for them. The real impact on volume for a drug is the manner in which it is treated on the formularies of the major insurance plans which have strong market shares in that territory. When a doc recognizes that a particular drug will cost his patient more out of pocket than an alternative, unless he really believes that drug has significantly more therapeutic effect, he will alter his Rx. We see it all the time on the plan side in our reviews of prescribing behavior, in consumer feedback, in physician feedback, when we change formularies, etc. As data becomes more broadly available, via PBMs operating on a larger geographic scale, companies and insurers are able to adjust their tiers to direct cost structures, balance cost vs. benefit and affect which drugs are used. Network consultants working with the physicians are able to communicate the logic behind these decisions and gain the docs support. Appeal mechanisms still exist to deal with exceptions so care is not compromized. Communications with the insured help to educate them on the options available to them, the alternatives and how to discuss this with their doctor. This also effects the Rx written. This is all beyond the control of the rep. Finally, no doctor worth his or her salt will compromise the doctor-patient relationship over the free samples, cookies or donuts….My physician friends joke about the “Barbies”, a sometimes welcome amusement in a slow day, of which there are few. They otherwise dont take them very seriously and mostly dont see them. The office staff doesnt have much to do with them either. Most are women and find them to be insulting, when they themselves have worked hard NOT to be objectified and to be taken seriously.
I will give Taurel credit for thinking outside the box, at least. I don’t think his idea is even remotely realistic, but I like challenging the status quo. Our compensation, goal setting and sales philosophies are all stuck in the past and relatively disfunctional. We need to look forward and as much as the FTC will allow cooperatively restructure for an improved relationship with our customers. To do that we’ve got find the mavericks, free-thinkers and even the contrarians that are among us. However, almost every company I ever worked for preferred “Yes-men/women” to anyone who challenged the system. To challenge the system is to have an attitude problem or not be a team player. That’s changing only slowly.
Thank you to all the reps (former and current) for turning this into Cafe Pharma. You are juvenile and worthless. Please get lives.
I RELY ON REPS TO INFORM ME OF NEW ADVANCES AND TREATMENT.
THEY ARE VERY USEFUL IN HUMIRA…………GREG DOWD IS AN OUT STANDING INFORMED REP FOR HUMIRA
This theory opens the door for false reporting and inacurate documentation of the effectiveness (or lack there of) of treatment. There should be no financial incentive for either physicians or the pharmaceutical sales reps for the quality of the product, especially since these individuals have no influence on the effectiveness of the drug. Furthermore, if a patient fails to return to a clinic because the medication did not work, would this be counted as a failure, or as a sucess because there’s no documentation of the failure. It could be assumed that the patient didn’t return to a clinic because he is doing fine, but in reality he’s sought care from a different provider.
Ultimately, sales reps are paid currently based on the effectiveness of a medication, because if the medicine works with minimal sideeffects the patient will continue to refill at the pharmacy and hense, affect overall sales.
I joined the pharma industry in 1959 after med school and a doctorate in pharmacology. The worst thing that has happened in my lifetime is the advertizing of drugs to the general public: “ask your doctor if Get-a-Life” is right for you. I well remember when many of my friends in practice would not try anything new in their patients until asking one of their “favorite” reps-even if the new drug was not sold by this rep’s company. A couple of my younger friends have invited me to sit in on a “catered lunch” in their offices. Even at my advanced age, I have a certain expertise and I was horrified at some of the claims made.
I also well remember when Lilly had wonderful R&D programs that were the envy of many of us who didn’t work there.
BillBob you bring up a great point. You see a long time ago the pharmafia didn’t have prescription data. The only thing they had was factory sales to wholesalers. Then the wholesalers got smart and said, “we can sell where we ship their drugs” thus started DDD (Drug Distribution Data). Even then, it was only a rough guess who was writing rx’s, because it was only tracked to a drug store. Therefore all reps made a salary and bonus, but the incentive was on being honest with fair balance, because it was just a mangers guess if you were doing well, so you were not pushed to be unethical. Additionally back then they only hired, RN’s or RPH’s. Then in the early 90’s the Pharmafia was able to get specific rx data for specific doctors. Then came all the unethical fraudulent things that are rampant today. Back in 1988 when I was a drug rep, there were a lot of reps, but now for every one of me back then, there are 12 now with maybe 10% with some type of clinical science background. They are tripping all over themselves, several reps selling the same drugs in the same geography, and if the numbers are not there, then you won’t be either. So now reps with very limited knowledge, just making it up to get the Rx’s, and the companies not only condone it, but encourage it and compensate you for it!
you right the operative word in “sales rep” is sales. Maybe they should just set up shop out of the trunk of their car. with proper advertising they could push snake oil again.
I would leave all possibilities open to potential but can say that to try to create such a relationship between reps and patients is a little “Over the top”. All things considered, it is this type of thinking that breaks the mold and creates offshoot ideas that may be more realistic. Try going with it and brainstorming into reality.
I think whether you bring value to your job depends on you, no matter what field you are in. I have a PhD in neuropharmacology. I guess I could have been a doctor, but I didn’t want to be at the time.
I am in specialty sales and I love it. I spend time with doctors every day, discussing disease states and patient types and where my drugs (or other drugs) might fit their needs. I don’t spout the company line all the time, because that’s not the right thing to do.
My doctors seem to respect me and value my opinions. I think I am smart enough that by reading extensively about my disease states and relevant treatments, I can engage in a meaningful dialogue with my specialists. Do I diagnose and treat patients? Of course not. Do I provide valuable information to my doctors so that they may do so? Yes.
Good, smart doctors will gather information from many sources, including their reps. They will measure that information against their clinical experience and talk to their colleagues about their experience. But I know from the numerous times that I have had a doctor be surprised when I tell them one of my meds has to be taken with food that they don’t keep up on every drug they prescribe. They’re only human, just like reps are.
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